If I May Just Give My Opinion
Strange things happening recently in Houses for sale in Spain land. This post is going to ask a simple question: How long must I live in a country before the natives allow me to have an opinion? That is an opinion without being jumped on and told if you don’t like it then leave.
Just some background here. I love Spain and I love living in Spain. I have been here for two decades and really have no interest in going elsewhere at the moment.
The start of this realistation was a few weeks ago. On the Hola Valencia blog about corruption in Valencia the writers and my comment were told to shut up because we are not from Valencia. OK, isolated incident I hear you say. Well it has happened again with a comment I made on Twitter re the family photo of Zapatero with Obama. Maybe I have just started noticing it but it seems to be happening quite regularly recently.
What I don’t understand, or maybe I do on one level, is why the Spanish are quite content to rip into their own country mercilessly but if anybody else does it then they immediately go into a strop about how “Guiris” (Foreigners to the uninitiated) are not allowed to comment about perceived things that don’t work in Spain whereas natives can. Therefore my question of the day is how long must you be in a country before your opinion is accepted as valid? What are your thoughts?
Further Reading:
2) The Bad Rash (A blog about politics and life in Barcelona)
3) Notes From Spain Talks about life and society in Madrid
I couldn’t help smiling while I was reading. Does this happen only in Spain? I don’t think so. But if it’s like that, remember the popular saying when Spanish people fought the French for indepence… and the restoration of a king (Fernando VII) that shamelessly fled the country when Bonaparte told him to. Yet the Spaniards demanded his return, saying: “He’s a son of a bitch, but he’s OUR son of a bitch”. That attitude seems to be alive and well.
We decided to erase our comments on on that specific post. We stay strong about our opinions but we don’t feel like arguing with people. And it won’t hold us back to write more about politics if we think there is a need for it.
I just hate that people tell us to shut up because we are foreigners. We have to exact same rights and responsibilities,
Europe!!! Hello!!!!!
You’re entitled to express your opinion. What Maria on that Valencia blog seems to be suggesting is that not coming from Valencia means that you cannot comment on the barefaced corruption of the PP in that Comunidad Autónoma. I suspect that if you were were criticising the PSOE instead, she’d have supported you in your opinions.
Claiming that someone has ‘no right’ to comment, simply as an attempt to discredit their argument is a particularly sad way of admitting that you’ve got nothing better to respond with. A certain cretinous blogger in Barcelona has used the same tactic on me… or tried to anyway.
Frankly, someone fresh off the boat yesterday would probably innately have more interesting and useful opinions to share than a PP supporter.
@Alain
I like the sob quote
@Hola Valencia I wonder if she will ever show her face in your blog again
@ Tom It will be interesting to see if she has any opinion when it all comes out in the wash and they are all found as guilty as hell. Everyone knows about Orange Market/Valencia Experience/VCF Corruption here in Valencia but nobody talks openly about it.
Thanks for comments
Graham,
Exercise your democratic right and say what the heck you want about Spain (so long as it’s legal/non-defamatory) – you’ve every right to an opinion.
Spain’s got a serious, SERIOUS problem with outsiders. It also has a problem with democracy! You and I are older than Spanish democracy, of course, which says a lot. Little history of free thinking, coupled with proposterous preconceptions about people – even from other provinces within their own country – trivialises free debate and, consequently, change.
“Pues, es porque usted es Ingles…” – well, that must be it, then. Go ahead, trivialise the debate, idiota…
I love (most of) Spain but the mentality of the Spanish – even in the big cities – is often comparable with what I would term parochialism.
Thx for the comment Chris. I am thinking that it is a Valencia thing because I never seemed to get this in Asturias when we lived there. They take things much more with a pinch of salt.
And yes it must be because I am English even though i have lived half my life now in Spain!!! Dooohhhh!
I find this to be most interesting. I have never posted any adverse comments, but HAVE had a lot of discussion with Spanish Valencian friends about all sorts of subjects and NEVER been told to shut up. Maybe it’s because they are friends AND agreed!
I also think that those who VOTE here have an undisputed right to voice their opinion!
Maybe it’s because you were buying the drinks John!
Hi Graham,
I dont think it is the Spanish that can be singled out for this kind of behaviour. I think, if we are going to give generalised sweeping statements, then in most countries, the patriotism of its nationalists tend to think that foreigners have no right or place in giving opinions on politics, economics or social issues of their home country, even for second generation “immigrants”.
Graham, I am sure you will agree that unfortunately that you are a minority of expats living in Spain in that you are bilingual, have integrated into the lifestyle and the culture and raise your family accordingly.
I am also in that minority and like you I have a modern degree in Spanish in which I studied the modern socio-economic/political affairs of my adoptive country. I would definitely NOT say that I am an expert in this at all but I would say that these studies gave me a better understanding of the Spanish people and their outlooks due to their not so distant history under the Franco dictatorship – an understanding that I would may not have necessarily gained with my studies.
So, I imagine from the “Spanish” point of view, it is indeed possible to live in Spain, because fluent in Spanish but not necessarily have a grasp on Spanish matters, because even studying recent historic events of the country is a far second to actually living it.
It is therefore really not ignorance on the part of the Spanish who choose to comment that foreigners have no place commenting on matters of the country, just merely the sweeping statement of a handful of individuals who do not know you personally and therefore do not know that you are an educated man who has adopted this country as his own and lived here for so long.
I would also like to say that it is not necessarily the length of time that you live in a country but more an individual’s attitude to integration.
I have know, to my utter embarassment, people who have lived in Spain for over 20 years and cannot (or do not) even manage the most basic cursory Spanish phrases in their day to day lives such as “Hola” and “Gracias”.
Perhaps if we are to focus on a “few bad eggs” then we should focus on these unintegrated expats in our adopted country who are giving a bad name reputation to those of us do make the effort. Perhaps this would be a better approach than headbutting a few individual Spaniards and their passing comments. If, again another sweeping statements, if the expats were better integrated, then the Spanish would have no grounds to comment on our lack of understanding of their socio-political-economic affairs.
Nicky
Nicky, thanks a lot for pointing this out. Despite my rather cynical view of my own country, I think it’s true that you would have the same problem (not being allowed to express an opinion of internal affairs if you’re a foreigner) in any country. Have you ever read US commenters in blogs that address sensitive issues about the States?
Interesting post and some great comments. I wouldn’t worry about it, it’s a universal issue – there will always be a minority who resort to racism to defeat an argument, and they do across the world. I’ve heard similar sorts of comments being made by people in UK about Asian Brits, who have been Brits for several generations.
To some people here in Spain we’ll always be Guiris – even if we do live most of our lives and ultimately die here. Fortunately, to the vast majority, we’re part of the fabric of the place.
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